Freelancers are the epitome of a company of one. That means you must be the self-reliant core that performs your craft while also running a viable business.
And yet any truly vibrant core is surrounded by support. Having high quality people around you leads to a better business and lifestyle.
Some of these people are the ones you rely on to perform tasks that you can’t or shouldn’t. For example, unless you’re a web designer, you shouldn’t be hacking away trying to build your website. The same is true for functions like legal, accounting, and business coaching.
And then there’s the people who send you new clients. These are your advocates, and they can take many forms, ranging from affiliates to those who simply talk you up when you aren’t even aware of it.
The question becomes, how do you attract these people? Is it about hustle and hype, or is it more about playing the long game and developing true relationships?
In this episode, Jay Clouse of Freelancing School joins us to talk through ways to attract the people you need to run your business, and the advocates that help you grow it.
Links
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Transcript
Freelancers: Build a Network of Advocates that Builds Your Business
Jerod Morris: Welcome to 7-Figure Small, the podcast that brings you the stories and strategies that are driving the growing number of solo businesses achieving 7-figures in revenue, without investors or employees. Here is your host for this edition of 7-Figure Small — serial digital entrepreneur, Brian Clark.
Brian Clark: Freelancers are the epitome of a company of one. That means you must be the self-reliant core that performs your craft while also running a viable business.
And yet any truly vibrant core is surrounded by support. Having high-quality people around you leads to a better business and lifestyle.
Some of these people are the ones you rely on to perform tasks that you can’t or shouldn’t. For example, unless you’re a web designer, you shouldn’t be hacking away trying to build a website. The same is true for functions like legal, accounting, and business coaching.
And then there’s the people who send you new clients. These are your advocates, and they can take many forms, ranging from affiliates to those who simply talk you up when you aren’t even aware of it.
The question becomes, how do you attract these people? Is it about hustle and hype, or is it more about playing the long game and developing true relationships?
In this episode, Jay Clouse of Freelancing School joins us to talk through ways to attract the people you need to run your business, and the advocates that help you grow it.
I am Brian Clark, and this is 7-Figure Small. Thanks for listening.
Remember, when you need a solution for accounting, you can turn to easy-to-use cloud accounting software from FreshBooks. Right now they’re offering a 30-day no credit card required free trial to listeners of the show. Just visit FreshBooks.com/unemployable to get started. And don’t forget to enter UNEMPLOYABLE in the “How Did You Hear About Us? section.
Jay, how are you? Thank you so much for being on the show.
Jay Clouse: I’m doing well. Thanks for having me.
What Was Your Journey?
Brian Clark: Yeah, absolutely. For those who may not be familiar with you, let’s talk a little bit about how you got here. What’s been your journey to this point as an entrepreneur, a freelancer, both?
Jay Clouse: Yeah, I think it’s a little bit backwards from where a lot of people come from, to be honest.
I went to Ohio State University and came from a small town, and entrepreneurship wasn’t in my lens at all. I didn’t know that was a possibility. I thought you take the path, you go to university, you get a degree. That brings you to a job that pays you well, and you worked that job for 35 years, and then you retire, and you’re happy.
Brian Clark: Wow! You had the fable going.
Jay Clouse: That was what I thought I was doing. My parents are both high school teachers. And when I was going into college, I thought the one thing I didn’t want to do was teach.
So I went and I was undecided. I found myself in journalism, because I like to write, and that was where I knew I could do some of that. But very quickly I found an entrepreneurship organization as an undergraduate, because of someone who was in my freshman dorm. And that had such a fundamental shift on the way I saw the world immediately, because I just didn’t realize the path that I had been sold was somebody else’s path, that I could make my own path. That was now something I realized I could do.
So I fell in love with the startup mythology that was happening around that time, and probably got interested in startups for the wrong reason, because it was kind of the new celebrity, and it seemed cool. As such, right out of college, I helped start a software platform called Tixers, which sold tickets. So it was kind of like of a startup.
We raised some money and had some success, sold that company in 2015. And after a year of working for the company that bought us, which was terrible, I went and took a product management job at a startup here in Columbus, Ohio. Working at that job for a year, I really missed the autonomy and the agency that came with working for myself and building my own thing.
So I left about a year in and decided to go back out on my own, didn’t know what that looked like. Just based on kind of a whim, someone had mentioned to me that they were in a mastermind program. They thought, “Well, based on the network that you have, you could probably pull that together for people, and you could probably facilitate that pretty effectively.
And so I just ran with it. I said, “Okay, if that’s a product that has market fit, I can assemble that and do that and run with that. I thought I’d probably work with mostly startup founders. What I found was most of the people that found their way to me, and the advocates that I had for that business referring other people, were freelancers.
They were these people who were very, very talented and were doing things, because they compulsively just had to do them, and they wanted to be creative and do whatever they wanted to do, build their own path also. But when you’re a freelancer, you get to this point where it’s the E-Myth. You know, if you’re a baker, maybe you shouldn’t start a bakery necessarily. It’s not the same skillset.
These freelancers were really, really great at what they were doing, but they just didn’t quite know how to start the bakery, so to speak. With a background in product and entrepreneurship, that was easy for me. I just saw what they were doing as something that could be packaged up as a product and you could sell it.
So I ended up working with a lot of freelancers in the process, thereby freelancing myself essentially. And it’s just kind of grown from there.
Brian Clark: Yeah, it’s really interesting that you say that entrepreneurship was not really baked into you as a young person — same with me. I didn’t have a damn clue what I wanted to do, but it never occurred to me that I could just start a business. And I guess that’s why I ended up in law school.
But what I really wanted to do once I became an attorney was to become a writer. I just had this nasty independent streak, looked at this Internet thing and said, “Well, I can write here, but how do I make money? And that’s when I realized, “Oh, you have to start a business. And then 20 years later and 10 companies… It’s fascinating how it happens.
I feel like a lot of younger people today are really blessed with so many people that can share this stuff. And I’m envious of some of the young entrepreneurs, because they just hit the ground running, age 20, maybe younger. That’s really amazing to see. But yeah, I can relate to the, “Oh, I can do this?
Jay Clouse: And you don’t have to start a bakery. You don’t have to be a business owner to flex on these creative skills you want to do. It’s just for the people who can’t bear the idea of having a boss and working for somebody else’s bakery. You’ve got to embrace that business owner within you, or you’re just not going to make a happy living. You’re going to be miserable and run ragged, and you’re going to end up hating the thing that you love doing the most.
Brian Clark: Yeah, absolutely. So, it’s interesting with your product background, because when you and I started talking about doing this interview, you had a very unique perspective that I understood myself as a product person, and yet I hadn’t quite heard anyone talking about it in the context of freelancing.
And that’s another interesting thing, that we all bring perspectives that just seem common sense, because we started here. And yet everyone in another realm is being told how it’s been done or what you’re supposed to do. And that was another big thing in my background, which is what I was told you had to do.
For example, I started a real estate brokerage in 2001. And they were like, “Well, you’ve got to cold call and knock on doors. And I’m like, “Nah, there’s no way. And so I learned copywriting and how to build websites.
Anyway, I love it when someone says, “Yeah, this just makes total sense, and everyone else is going, “I never thought of it that way.
Solo Does Not Mean Alone
Brian Clark: But first, before we get to that specific thing, which I think is going to be illuminating, let’s talk about the importance, especially as a freelancer or some other kind of solo business owner, we definitely want to bust the myth that just because you’re solo means you’re alone. In fact, I think alone is a recipe for unhappiness and disaster in some cases.
So let’s talk about, from your perspective, the importance of building that network as a freelancer. Whether you’re just coming out of the gate, or maybe you’ve been around for a couple of years.
Jay Clouse: I think it’s everything. I mean, I think if you’re not on this planet to build relationships to some degree, I’m just not sure what you’re doing. But in the beginning, any freelancer will tell you that most of their business comes from referrals, and referrals come from people who are close enough to you and trust you enough to send people to you. And so you have to have those people.
Everybody has these people in their life already. It’s family, it’s friends, it’s former collaborators or coworkers. These people are already your advocates. And you didn’t become somebody’s coworker or friend, because you wanted them to send you or refer you business. But it’s a downstream consequence of it.
If you’re not actively building your network and meeting people around you who make you better, who inspire you, who fulfill your life and are also around some of the people that you want to help, you’re going to have a hard going of it. Especially in the beginning, because you’re going to have to spend all of your time going out and prospecting specifically to find clients, which can be exhausting and hard for a lot of people who are freelancing. And it doesn’t leave a lot of time to do the actual work.
So as early as possible, the more that you can meet people and make friends and build your network, just the better off you’re going to be, no matter what you’re doing.
Building a Network of Freelancers
Brian Clark: Yeah, absolutely. As a source of referral business, of course, that’s indispensable. But I think there’s more to it. And you alluded to it earlier — the whole E-Myth thing, that if you want to be a baker, go work for someone else. If you want to own a bakery, that’s a business, that’s a different thing.
To me, an invaluable aspect of a network is also, “Who can I work with now that we have this emerging indie economy of freelancers and solopreneurs and vendors that serve people like us to get all the rest of the stuff done? Accounting, of course, your website, whatever your skill is.
Let’s say you’re a freelance writer. You’re not a designer, you’re not an accountant. And the quickest way, and I learned this firsthand back many years ago, the more you try to do everything yourself, the more unhappy you’re going to be, and you might just fall apart.
So let’s talk about the network of people who allow you to run the business, because I don’t think there’s ever been a better opportunity in the long history of freelancing to get just the right person to do whatever it is you need without having to hire employees and without needing a war chest of investment funds.
Jay Clouse: Totally. And I probably beat my head against the wall longer than I should have on this, because being a naturally curious and intelligent person, every time there’s a new challenge, I just wanted to learn it and I wanted to do it myself.
So, it didn’t necessarily make me unhappy that I was doing all of these things, but it certainly slowed everything else down and was holding me back. The more that you identify, “Okay, what are the elements of my business? What are the levers that I have to pull on a weekly or monthly or even quarterly basis when it comes to things like accounting that I just don’t like to do and it’s not cost effective for me to do?
Accounting is a perfect example of this. I have never regretted paying somebody to help me with bookkeeping and accounting, because it saves me so much time. They end up saving me more money, because they know the rule better than it costs to hire them to do it. And in a world where your currency is your time and your skills, the more time that you are spending outside of using your skills (which are the most valuable part of your business), you’re just losing that money.
Finding people around you who can be co-conspirators and take that off your plate is one really great way of looking at it. But also, in a product world, you think about distribution. If you can work with people who already have distribution or inbound leads, and you’re a part of their machine also.
Maybe someone else is a really great website development shop, and you’re a copywriter. They’re building the site, they’re working with a designer that’s making all that great, but they need to plug in really, really great copy that’s going to speak to this product.
Maybe you plug into their system a little bit and that’s built-in distribution. You don’t have to worry as much about business development or finding new clients. That’s great too.
Brian Clark: Yeah, that’s wonderful. And you can become that hub of referral business yourself, which can be incredibly lucrative. Or you can benefit from being in someone else’s hub which is amazing. That’s an incredible point.
Going back to what you said about your own curiosity, that reminded me, I think when I tried to do things myself that I perhaps shouldn’t have, it came from a good place of being that curious fascinated person. And I think a lot of people who succeed working for themselves, whatever capacity that ends up being, have that.
How Do You Find Good People?
Brian Clark: So it starts in a good place, and then one day you look up, and you’ve got to do the work that pays the bills, and you have to do everything else, because you didn’t outsource it in the first place.
Give us a few tips before we move on. How do you find good people? I mean, that’s the struggle, right?
Jay Clouse: Totally. I hope it comes from a good place, but sometimes it also comes from a little bit of a scarcity mindset, where you think, “Well, I only have so much cash. Sure, I can just do it myself. I don’t have to spend cash on it. But you don’t quantify or think about what you’re losing by doing that, which is the opportunity to be making more money in that time. But, anyway, you asked about how to find good people.
I use the same shortcut for this that I use for learning about anything. It’s going to somebody I respect who’s already solved this problem and asking them how they solved it, who they worked with, who they talked to, how they thought about it. Because sometimes, they thought about it in a different way. And that’s important to know if you’re making a choice that’s similar, maybe a little bit different.
It’s always easier for me to go and talk to a handful of people who I know have hired for this position before and probably, honestly, even screwed up hiring for this position before, or screwed up outsourcing this type of work.
Ask them who they found, if they would recommend them, if that person has capacity. And if that person doesn’t have time to help me also, I ask that person where they would go to find someone else like them.
Brian Clark: Yeah, that’s solid advice. I do know even from personal experience that when you’ve got a really solid source, let’s say for web design, and then someone asks you, “Who’s your designer? You hesitate just for a second and go, “I don’t want to lose them. I don’t want them to get too busy.
But I ended up giving the referral, because you know, that’s kind of uncool. But I know people do that. They’ve got someone good, and they actually won’t share and help that person build their business, because they’re worried that they’re going to get cut out, which is its own form of scarcity mindset. But still, when you find someone good, man, you jealously guard them.
Jay Clouse: Totally. We see this with an audio engineer that we work with too. What we’ve erred on the side of doing is going to that person first, and asking them if they have capacity to take on more freelance clients, kind of presuming that we will have priority with them. And it hasn’t bitten us yet. I’m talking about me and my business partner on a different show. It hasn’t bitten us yet, but I can see where that could come back and be a little regretful.
Brian Clark: Yeah, but you just pointed out the truth right there, which is if they’re really a solid source, they’re not going to ditch you, especially if you’re bringing them in new business. It’s a natural reaction, but ultimately, it’s probably not something that’s going to help you. Actually, I think the more you help someone else’s career, the more they’re going to look back at you and make sure they take care of you.
Jay Clouse: Totally, even if it’s in the longer term. Sometimes the short term, you think, “Man, I was doing this for the right reasons and that didn’t work out. But over a long enough time horizon, usually, if you are acting from a good place, that will come back in a positive way.
Develop a Network of Advocates
Brian Clark: Absolutely, play the long game in all aspects.
Okay, so we’re figuring out, we’re building a network of surrounding talent that augments us, allows us to make more money, because we are spending our time focused on what we do best. But, we need clients to do that optimally. And if there’s not enough clients, then you’ve got free time and a bunch of invoices to pay all these people that are helping you out.
So let’s get down to the nitty gritty of having a network that not only supports you in whatever ways you need, whether it be emotional support services, what have you. But actually is out there advocating for you.
This was the word that you used that caught my attention before we did the interview — which is a network of advocates. And I understood completely what you meant as a product guy. You’ve got these relationships. My MO is always do something for the other person first before you ever ask for anything. Not a quid pro quo type thing. Unfortunately, everyone knows what that Latin phrase means now.
Not expecting anything in return, but just personally. I always want to help someone out first. They tend to become friends for life if nothing else. But if you do sometime have something you need, at least you feel like you’re not just reaching out and not giving back.
Jay Clouse: Totally. This is another example of how something in college just found me at the exact right time. Somebody recommended that I read the book How to Win Friends and Influence People. That book had such a big impact on my life, and there are just a couple of passages that I really remember strongly.
One of them being not giving yourself the out to not remember somebody’s name, the importance of remembering somebody’s name. And the other being that if you want someone to think you’re a good conversationalist, if you want to be a good conversationalist, if you want to build relationships with people, you need to ask them about themselves.
That’s the starting point of so many good conversations, so many good relationships, and honestly, the starting point to pretty much any conversation that I have. Because if you ask somebody about themselves, they will tell you happily about what they do to whatever degree that they’re able to talk about that.
Eventually, they’ll turn the conversation over to you. And they’ll think, “Oh my gosh, I’ve been talking for 30 minutes and I haven’t even talked to Jay about what he does. And when they do that, what you create is a really great situation to create what I call an “advocate, which is somebody who supports you actively and will go out and basically sing good praises about you if you are a good person that they believe in and they trust and they like.
But it doesn’t come from starting talking about yourself. Just about never will you talk to somebody, and if they just start pushing “all about them on you, you’re not going to have a great feeling about that interaction.
As a freelancer, you are constantly meeting new people. You are constantly trying to find clients, yes. But you mentioned a little bit ago playing the long-term. Clients don’t usually happen from the first conversation unless they were referred to you. Creating a client is a longer term process and a longer term game.
Before anyone becomes a client, I encourage people to think about trying to make an advocate first. Even if they never pay you a dollar, even if they never hire you to work with them, they could still be an advocate. And that makes every conversation valuable, no matter what.
If somebody does become a client and they do pay you, usually it comes after advocating to themselves that they want to pay you and they want to work with you. It’s really a simple acronym that I think about. It’s just ABC — Advocate Before Client. Go into every meeting, not trying to win a client, but win an advocate. And if you leave that conversation, you leave it positively.
Like I said, even if you never get a dollar from that person, they’re going to go out in the world and they’re going to meet people themselves. I think humans have sort of an innate desire to help one another, and they may not be thinking day-to-day, “I want to help Jay. I want to help Brian.
But when somebody comes to them and says, “I need help with this thing, if you’ve left a good impression on them and they have the tools to be an advocate for you, they’re going to try to solve that person’s problem in front of them with your solution. And you do that enough times over enough months or years, you don’t have to do a whole lot of outbound client generation anymore.
If you just create this huge network of advocates, because you’re going out making friends, learning about them, and then giving them the appropriate tool set to be an advocate for you, you basically have a distributed network of salesmen that you don’t have to pay.
Curiosity about Other People
Brian Clark: Yeah, that’s fascinating. You make so many good points. Let me see if I can unpack some of this.
First of all, yes, the secret to being a great conversationalist is listening.
Jay Clouse: Not talking. It’s hard to be on this side of the microphone.
Brian Clark: Exactly. And here’s a tip on that — again, it goes back to what we were talking about earlier, about curiosity. I know some people go out networking and that’s their game. I can’t stand that personally.
But I am genuinely curious about other people. And I am an introvert, so if I’m going to leave the house, I don’t want to talk about myself. It makes me uncomfortable. So I automatically ask about the other person and I stand there and listen, because they love it that I ask them about themselves.
But I really am curious, because everyone’s got something about them that’s fascinating. If you listen and you ask the next question, it’ll come out. And you’re like, “Wow, that was a great 10 minutes of my life. So that’s just a general get-through the happy hour or party for me. But it makes it enjoyable for me.
If you can bring that level of curiosity whenever you meet people, it’s not like work and you don’t have to have it in the back of your head: “When am I going to get out of this? That’s the wrong way to think about it. Don’t you think?
Jay Clouse: 100%. You see this in people who are really interested in learning, because you don’t learn when you’re talking about yourself. All you’re doing is saying the things you already know. The way you learn is by talking to other people.
If you’re genuinely interested in learning and genuinely curious, you can’t help but talk to people about them and about what they know. And you unearth different opportunities for collaborating or working together or even just sharing a common interest through that process. If you don’t give them a chance to talk, you never learn those things. So really putting emphasis on, “I want to learn about this person, I want to hear from them. I want to know everything there is to know about them.
I actually have a little bit of a bad habit where I’ll meet people and it almost feels like I’m interviewing them, because I ask so many questions and so quickly.
Brian Clark: Yeah, I do that too. Yeah, it’s good practice for this.
Jay Clouse: It is, it is. But to some people, it’s a little intimidating. So I try to reel it back a little bit and try not to get the whole of a person through five or six questions. But instead, build this over time, ask deeper questions about a smaller element of their personality and their work, and then span out the bigger questions over a period of time.
Brian Clark: Yeah, this just makes me think that this is one more area where it’s counterintuitive about what works. Just being genuinely interested in other people without an agenda actually gets you more of what you’re ultimately looking for than otherwise. Being generous without necessarily worrying about what you get in return brings you back more than otherwise.
It’s just this whole hustle culture we have that’s, I think, being beaten back, thankfully, with enough smart people like you saying, “Hey, you know what, maybe it’s actually like this. And I know it is, because I’ve lived it.
Everyone thinks they’ve got to get out there and be aggressive. And that’s really off putting, I mean, at least to me. I get pitched every single day in every medium you can imagine. And 99% of it is just not going to work. There’s no human connection.
Then, I guess if we’re really going to get down to brass tacks, most of the time there’s nothing in it for me. They just want something. And I’m like, “Why would I do this?
How to Think of the Relationship with Advocates
Brian Clark: Let’s address that, because I think you can. And I think you’re dead-on with creating advocates through genuine relationship. Just getting to know someone, actually being interested in who they are and maybe picking up on how you can help them out before you ask them for anything, or they’re in a position to even do anything for you.
But how do you handle that? Let’s say, you’ve got something important coming up? Like you, Jay, are launching a new product. And at that point, this is a real ask. This is, “I would like you to promote this. If it’s an affiliate then, okay, there’s some something in it for them naturally.
Do you think about your advocates that way? Or is it more just if the relationship is right, it’s going to naturally work out?
Jay Clouse: You can, but I think you have to consider every relationship with every person as sort of a bank account. As long as you are depositing more goodwill than you are pulling out… In a situation where there’s not an affiliate aspect and you’re really just genuinely asking somebody to promote something for you overtly, I think that’s just kind of a withdrawal from that social capital bank account. And you have to decide if and when that’s worth it. Because when that runs dry, you can’t go back to the bank. You have to be making deposits if you’re going to be making withdrawals.
Most of the time, advocates really help you out — you don’t make the ask at all. And if you’re not actively and overtly asking somebody to be an advocate for you, there’s not this dynamic of feeling like, “Jay keeps taking from the bank. He keeps pulling from the same well, because I’m not. That’s all freely given, and that just comes from building genuine relationships and goodwill with people.
Brian Clark: Yeah, I like the bank analogy. I’ve heard it before and despite the fact that social capital is kind of one of those buzz words…
Jay Clouse: It’s a gross term.
Brian Clark: But it makes sense. It’s one of the few where I’m like, “Yeah, that’s a real thing, because some people take and take, and other people have the opposite problem. They give and give, but they get really awkward about asking, so they don’t. And of course, you’re right. I mean, the best advocates, you’re not even aware that they were out talking about you.
You know the kind of person that is constantly talking you up, and they don’t even bother to shoot you a note so you know they were talking. That’s a selfless person right there. Those are the best friends and allies you can have.
Jay Clouse: Totally.
Brian Clark: But sometimes when it comes down to it, you can’t be afraid to go ahead and make a withdrawal, especially if you’ve been depositing in that relationship like you should.
Jay Clouse: And I think that’s okay. I don’t think you have to frame it as, “Hey, I’ve been keeping score over here, and I know I’ve been doing these things for you. So do this for me now.
Brian Clark: So we’re saying, don’t keep a ledger.
Jay Clouse: No, you go and you say, “Hey, I’m launching this thing, and there’s no pressure, no obligation. But if you are open to sharing this on my behalf, it’d be great to do it at this time. Or I’d love to pull you in for an interview, I’d love to do this thing.
You don’t want pretense or presumption. You don’t want to assume they will do it because of anything that’s been done in the past. Again, as long as you’ve built a good relationship with that person, usually they do on their own volition. Just giving somebody the out and overtly calling out and saying, “You don’t have to do this. I’m not expecting you to do this. That makes people comfortable enough to say, “Okay, but I would like to.
Why Freelancers?
Brian Clark: That’s a good approach. Excellent. So looking at your site over at jayclouse.com, you clearly have an affection for freelancers. I think a lot of us do, because you started off on the other side of the fence. I started off with the legal equivalent of being a freelancer.
I mean, anytime you’re one person serving clients, trying to pay the bills — I won’t say those were fond memories necessarily, but it’s an important aspect of the journey. Without that, no one would ever go, “God, I’ve got to get away from these clients, and maybe then at that point start making products.
But what drew you specifically? Now, obviously, the demographics and the growth of freelancing, that’s an attractive… Everyone’s got to have a smart business proposition. But beyond that, what drew you to freelancers? What made you say, “These are the people I can really help?
Jay Clouse: The thing was they drew to me, and it was more of an exercise of listening and paying attention and noticing patterns than anything else.
When I started this mastermind program, the Unreal Collective Accelerator, I thought I’d be working with startup founders. That’s just what I thought would be the clientele. And it turned out to be mostly freelancers.
After giving a lot of the same advice and seeing the same problems over and over again, there became an opportunity, to your point, to productize a little bit around that. And it just came from the fact that I had already created resources, I had already created some content around it, and it just made sense. It wasn’t something that I calculated and kind of wielded into existence.
Brian Clark: So often it’s not. It’s so easy to look at it and go, “Well, of course, the growth of newbie freelancers, they need help. But it’s my experience as well that usually the opportunity presents itself in more of an organic way. Then you go do the math and you’re like, “Okay, I think I can help.
Jay Clouse: And what I see actually is that it’s a difficult demographic or target customer, because most freelancers I know don’t self-identify as a freelancer. They self-identify as a graphic designer who is freelancing. They self-identify as a photographer that happens to work with clients. They don’t self-identify as, “Hi, I’m Jay, I’m a freelancer. That’s not where they see their own identity.
Brian Clark: That’s so true. This is an aside, but that just made me think that my new partner at Copyblogger, Tim, is an SEO wiz and I hardly ever pay attention to anything about search anymore. He’s like, “Look at all these keyword phrases I found for you on ‘unemployable.’ And it was all about the role. If they tacked freelance on there, it was only because they didn’t want to work for someone else.
So you’re absolutely right. We identify by our craft, not our tax designation.
Jay Clouse: Totally. I think it’s smart, because some people have some connotations and baggage or assumptions with what it means to work with a freelancer. They equate that with cheaper work or something that’s kind of like a cog that they can outsource, and it’s harder to build and protect your value around the work that you do if you’re self-identifying as a freelancer. So I get it.
But it’s certainly a harder mouthful to say, “I work with creative service-based businesses.
What Do You Offer?
Brian Clark: Yes, exactly. I get it. All right. Tell us some of the things, the solutions that you do offer to freelancers and other kind of solo or startup people.
Jay Clouse: Totally. So, I write weekly. There was a period of time when I was still doing the startup thing, where I really had this narrative that I was an operator. I was a number two, I could take someone else’s ideas, and I could make them real, and I was not creative.
At some point, I decided to flip that on its head and stop believing it. So I started a blog and I started a newsletter and every day for a year, I published to that MailChimp list. It was awesome, I loved it. It’s what helped me find my own voice.
Since then I moved to weekly, and I have narrowed in more on artists and creatives, people who are freelancing or not. So that’s something that I offer weekly for free.
I got a really great opportunity to work with the team at LinkedIn Learning to do courses on LinkedIn Learning and Lynda.com around freelancing and product, coincidentally. And now I’ve started offering my own courses through Freelancing School, which is still fairly young, but we have courses there on marketing, selling, some business basics.
If you’re wondering how to create a budget, or how to manage your taxes, or how to predict cash flow, or how to go and market yourself, or how to sell your services — all of that’s covered in Freelancing School. We have a podcast coming out soon, but that will be announced at a later date.
Where Can We Find You?
Brian Clark: Cool. Tell people again where they can find you.
Jay Clouse: You can find my writing at jayclouse.com or anything freelancing at freelancing.school.
Brian Clark: And you also co-host another podcast, which is at the other end of the spectrum of the self-employment or the Unemployable spectrum. I’ll use my own tag there. But you have a podcast that you talk about raising money of all things.
Jay Clouse: Yeah, and it’s a little bit of an artifact of a former life. But it’s also really fun and really feeds my curiosity. Because on Upside, we talk to pre Series A founders and investors who are not based in San Francisco. So we’re covering the movement of entrepreneurship across the country that’s not based in the Valley. We’re talking to people who are really early stage in their companies, but doing really novel things. Really, really fun and interesting.
And it does a few things. Sometimes, I’m able to actually connect our guests to freelancers in my network. A lot of times, it just teaches me about all kinds of different industries that my clients work within also. So much more of a passion project than anything else. But we’ve been doing that for a couple of years over at Upside.fm.
Brian Clark: Yeah, I love that, because everything outside of the Valley or New York or Boston — to me with the technology that we have, it’s becoming less important. I mean, from a capital standpoint, those are still VC hubs, but it’s spreading out. Are you familiar at all with Powderkeg, Matt Hunckler?
Jay Clouse: Yeah, we had Matt on the show. We haven’t released that episode yet actually. But yeah, I love what those guys are doing.
Brian Clark: Yeah, I’m an investor in that. Matt’s just a great guy. So yeah, the more we can get the middle of the country, spreading out some of this innovation and whatnot — it’s definitely going to happen. I think what you’re doing with Upside and what they’re doing is the Lord’s work, if you will, in this realm.
Jay Clouse: At the end of the day, it’s just never been a better time to build whatever you want to build. It’s cheaper than ever, it’s easier than ever. There are certain things that won’t change if the world runs on relationships, as we already talked about. And that’s where a lot of the hard work happens. But anything you want to do, you should feel empowered to do that, where you are.
Brian Clark: Amen to that. I think we’re going to close on that sentiment, because it is definitely true and a huge motivator for the opportunity that’s out there right now.
Jay, thank you so much for being on the show. I really enjoyed this.
Jay Clouse: Yeah, thanks for having me, Brian.